Prison Block Forums .:. Thread: OBAMA OR ROMNEY

13 years ago #1,801

hokiefan

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[quote=wormdogg10][quote=hokiefan][quote=neo88][quote=hokiefan][quote=neo88][quote=hokiefan]so i live in Pennsylvania and i work in manufacturing.  I am a moderate who disagrees with the exorbanent amount of money factory unions spend on political lobbying, lavish outings for the union leadership, and unreasonable expenses and salaries for union members at the union hall.  What am I supposed to do, pack up and move to another state so i'm not subject to forking over anywhere from $300 - $1000+ per year to support the unions cause?

Shouldn't a union have to work to earn the money from the workers, essentially a free enterprise, instead of forcing everyone to buy their product?  What if I've worked a plant for 20 years and the union doesn't make a push for demands I want as an employee, fails to file grievances that i feel are necessary, why would I want to pay for that product.[/quote]

Maybe you deal with the wrong union. Most unions bring together you and your co workers and negotiate for you. Not just salary and benefits but transfers, safety, education, pensions, vacations etc...you are not paying for nothing. If you feel your union isnt representing you adequately you can join a different union that you feels focuses on the things you want. [/quote]

not in a closed shop you cant, i've been with this company 20 years, I don't want to just give up that tenure, I can't just go get another union.  at least in a right to work state, I can make my vote against the union by dropping out, they need to earn my dues.  i work  hard in this shop, and my co-workers go around telling the new guys to slow down, not work too fast because it takes away the overtime on the weekends.  they tell them not to learn too many positions because then the company is just going to force them to come in and work when they don't want to.  I think that's a joke and I don't stand for it.

what do i do?[/quote]

ok you are in same situation lets say in michigan and rtw laws come along. Now you are happy you dont have to pay 1k a year for your membership. But now your salary is cut in half your benefits shrink to none. Pensions are lower, your state now spends less on education. Save that 1000 and but lose so much more. Not all unions are like what you describe, staff taking stupid vacations on union budget etc. I guess if you didnt like the union you were getting into then you shouldnt of joined in the first place. 
[/quote]

but what you see is, going right to work doesn't just wipe out what has already been done.  it doesn't cut pensions, it doesn't cut pay.  the union shop is STILL a union shop operating under the SAME CBA that they had prior to the vote.  What it means is I can drop out of the union which makes life just a little bit tougher for the union to pay all those high salaries for their ranking members, contribute ALL that money to political campaigns and lobbying efforts, and whatever else they spend their money on that isn't directly going towards my facility.  It means the union is going to have to work harder to keep that membership, fight harder for their members.  It keeps it fair, it gives the power to the workers to hold their union accountable.  As it stands now, you work there, you do what the union says and you can't do a damn thing about it.  You could go file a complaint with the NLRB, but then the union surely isn't going to do shit for your, and likely you'll just get harassed by them in private until you toss your hands up and leave.

edit: and it's a large assumption to say salary gets cut in half and benefits go to zero.  [/quote]

However the Union is still voting on your behalf if your a non union worker and you arent paying into the system which is an "entitlement" that you oppose of! Gaining from a system that you arent paying into! You are your worst nightmare! Gaining from the system without having to abide by the same rules as those who do pay! Tsk tsk! [/quote]

i already made the inverse to that argument, so it goes both ways.  further proof that politics is garbage and we're all fucked.

Originally posted by wormdogg10

Originally posted by hokiefan

Originally posted by neo88

Originally posted by hokiefan

Originally posted by neo88

Originally posted by hokiefan so i live in Pennsylvania and i work in manufacturing. I am a moderate who disagrees with the exorbanent amount of money factory unions spend on political lobbying, lavish outings for the union leadership, and unreasonable expenses and salaries for union members at the union hall. What am I supposed to do, pack up and move to another state so i'm not subject to forking over anywhere from $300 - $1000+ per year to support the unions cause?

Shouldn't a union have to work to earn the money from the workers, essentially a free enterprise, instead of forcing everyone to buy their product? What if I've worked a plant for 20 years and the union doesn't make a push for demands I want as an employee, fails to file grievances that i feel are necessary, why would I want to pay for that product.

Maybe you deal with the wrong union. Most unions bring together you and your co workers and negotiate for you. Not just salary and benefits but transfers, safety, education, pensions, vacations etc...you are not paying for nothing. If you feel your union isnt representing you adequately you can join a different union that you feels focuses on the things you want.

not in a closed shop you cant, i've been with this company 20 years, I don't want to just give up that tenure, I can't just go get another union. at least in a right to work state, I can make my vote against the union by dropping out, they need to earn my dues. i work hard in this shop, and my co-workers go around telling the new guys to slow down, not work too fast because it takes away the overtime on the weekends. they tell them not to learn too many positions because then the company is just going to force them to come in and work when they don't want to. I think that's a joke and I don't stand for it.

what do i do?

ok you are in same situation lets say in michigan and rtw laws come along. Now you are happy you dont have to pay 1k a year for your membership. But now your salary is cut in half your benefits shrink to none. Pensions are lower, your state now spends less on education. Save that 1000 and but lose so much more. Not all unions are like what you describe, staff taking stupid vacations on union budget etc. I guess if you didnt like the union you were getting into then you shouldnt of joined in the first place.

but what you see is, going right to work doesn't just wipe out what has already been done. it doesn't cut pensions, it doesn't cut pay. the union shop is STILL a union shop operating under the SAME CBA that they had prior to the vote. What it means is I can drop out of the union which makes life just a little bit tougher for the union to pay all those high salaries for their ranking members, contribute ALL that money to political campaigns and lobbying efforts, and whatever else they spend their money on that isn't directly going towards my facility. It means the union is going to have to work harder to keep that membership, fight harder for their members. It keeps it fair, it gives the power to the workers to hold their union accountable. As it stands now, you work there, you do what the union says and you can't do a damn thing about it. You could go file a complaint with the NLRB, but then the union surely isn't going to do shit for your, and likely you'll just get harassed by them in private until you toss your hands up and leave.

edit: and it's a large assumption to say salary gets cut in half and benefits go to zero.

However the Union is still voting on your behalf if your a non union worker and you arent paying into the system which is an "entitlement" that you oppose of! Gaining from a system that you arent paying into! You are your worst nightmare! Gaining from the system without having to abide by the same rules as those who do pay! Tsk tsk!

i already made the inverse to that argument, so it goes both ways. further proof that politics is garbage and we're all fucked.

13 years ago #1,802

hokiefan

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[quote=KROWNVIC][quote=hokiefan][quote=neo88][quote=hokiefan]so i live in Pennsylvania and i work in manufacturing.  I am a moderate who disagrees with the exorbanent amount of money factory unions spend on political lobbying, lavish outings for the union leadership, and unreasonable expenses and salaries for union members at the union hall.  What am I supposed to do, pack up and move to another state so i'm not subject to forking over anywhere from $300 - $1000+ per year to support the unions cause?

Shouldn't a union have to work to earn the money from the workers, essentially a free enterprise, instead of forcing everyone to buy their product?  What if I've worked a plant for 20 years and the union doesn't make a push for demands I want as an employee, fails to file grievances that i feel are necessary, why would I want to pay for that product.[/quote]

Maybe you deal with the wrong union. Most unions bring together you and your co workers and negotiate for you. Not just salary and benefits but transfers, safety, education, pensions, vacations etc...you are not paying for nothing. If you feel your union isnt representing you adequately you can join a different union that you feels focuses on the things you want. [/quote]

not in a closed shop you cant, i've been with this company 20 years, I don't want to just give up that tenure, I can't just go get another union.  at least in a right to work state, I can make my vote against the union by dropping out, they need to earn my dues.  i work  hard in this shop, and my co-workers go around telling the new guys to slow down, not work too fast because it takes away the overtime on the weekends.  they tell them not to learn too many positions because then the company is just going to force them to come in and work when they don't want to.  I think that's a joke and I don't stand for it.  I had a supervisor walk by and start helping to restack some parts that fell on the floor and our local shop steward got all up in arms and said he's gonna file a greivance because he's taking away our work, when the supervisor was just trying to help out the team.

what do i do?[/quote]

Sounds like your problem deals with the individuals that your union let in not what the union is trying to do for the workers. I'm sure they are not training them to do and say that stuff. The wrong people can ruin any organization and make the system look flawed when in turn its the individuals envovled. 
Just think of sports agents dealing with college players. Its up to the student athelete to police himself and know what's right and wrong. If he gets caught then he faces stiff penalties for the entire program. 
To me it seems like you are not actually in the union but works along side some of them, is this true?[/quote]

yeah so you try to manage out the bad apples and the union just brings them back through arbitration.  what gives?

Originally posted by KROWNVIC

Originally posted by hokiefan

Originally posted by neo88

Originally posted by hokiefan so i live in Pennsylvania and i work in manufacturing. I am a moderate who disagrees with the exorbanent amount of money factory unions spend on political lobbying, lavish outings for the union leadership, and unreasonable expenses and salaries for union members at the union hall. What am I supposed to do, pack up and move to another state so i'm not subject to forking over anywhere from $300 - $1000+ per year to support the unions cause?

Shouldn't a union have to work to earn the money from the workers, essentially a free enterprise, instead of forcing everyone to buy their product? What if I've worked a plant for 20 years and the union doesn't make a push for demands I want as an employee, fails to file grievances that i feel are necessary, why would I want to pay for that product.

Maybe you deal with the wrong union. Most unions bring together you and your co workers and negotiate for you. Not just salary and benefits but transfers, safety, education, pensions, vacations etc...you are not paying for nothing. If you feel your union isnt representing you adequately you can join a different union that you feels focuses on the things you want.

not in a closed shop you cant, i've been with this company 20 years, I don't want to just give up that tenure, I can't just go get another union. at least in a right to work state, I can make my vote against the union by dropping out, they need to earn my dues. i work hard in this shop, and my co-workers go around telling the new guys to slow down, not work too fast because it takes away the overtime on the weekends. they tell them not to learn too many positions because then the company is just going to force them to come in and work when they don't want to. I think that's a joke and I don't stand for it. I had a supervisor walk by and start helping to restack some parts that fell on the floor and our local shop steward got all up in arms and said he's gonna file a greivance because he's taking away our work, when the supervisor was just trying to help out the team.

what do i do?

Sounds like your problem deals with the individuals that your union let in not what the union is trying to do for the workers. I'm sure they are not training them to do and say that stuff. The wrong people can ruin any organization and make the system look flawed when in turn its the individuals envovled.

Just think of sports agents dealing with college players. Its up to the student athelete to police himself and know what's right and wrong. If he gets caught then he faces stiff penalties for the entire program.

To me it seems like you are not actually in the union but works along side some of them, is this true?

yeah so you try to manage out the bad apples and the union just brings them back through arbitration. what gives?

13 years ago #1,803

wormdogg10

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Originally posted by hokiefan okay so straight up wages are higher in forced union vs RTW... but how does cost of living compare to that? I did a quick search and found this (from 2005 mind you)

"The average cost of living-adjusted household income in SMSAs in Right to Work states

is $47,320. Average adjusted household income in SMSAs in forced-unionism states is

$46,507. In terms of what their money income can buy, families living in SMSAs in

Right to Work states are $813 better off than families living in SMSAs in forcedunionism states. This evidence refutes Organized Labor�s argument that families are

better off living in states without Right to Work laws."

http://nilrr.org/files/Poulson%20SOL%20Study.pdf

forced union states are primarily higher taxed, left leaning states.

That was in 2005 RTW states income are almost $5000 lower then union states wages. They are also more likely to have more than 1 job or areon govt assistance of some kind.

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13 years ago #1,804

KROWNVIC

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Are you in the union hokie?

] You can easily judge the character of a man by how he treats those that can do nothing for him!

13 years ago #1,805

neo88

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you're right others can probably explain it better then me, maybe thats why there are unions ;]. All i see are many ill effects,not many positive in this.

13 years ago #1,806

wormdogg10

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Originally posted by KROWNVIC Are you in the union hokie?

No hes in management. And Ive been in management of unionized workers as well and basically the only thing that we ever had issues with was what my employees werent and were required to do. But never had any problems because we didnt hire idiots and the other people had been there for decades and knew how to do their jobs.

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13 years ago #1,807

hokiefan

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Originally posted by neo88 you're right others can probably explain it better then me, maybe thats why there are unions ;]. All i see are many ill effects,not many positive in this.

time to call in a shop steward Smile

13 years ago #1,808

hokiefan

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Originally posted by wormdogg10

Originally posted by KROWNVIC Are you in the union hokie?

No hes in management. And Ive been in management of unionized workers as well and basically the only thing that we ever had issues with was what my employees werent and were required to do. But never had any problems because we didnt hire idiots and the other people had been there for decades and knew how to do their jobs.

it's a tough issue because it varies so widely case by case. we dealt with a union crew that handled a mechanical and electrical install and they were stand up, very professional guys that did good work. I see the benefits definitely, but I also see the other side of it where there is intimidation and tactics that are used that are not in the benefit of employees who just want to go to work and do a good job.

13 years ago #1,809

KROWNVIC

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Originally posted by wormdogg10

Originally posted by KROWNVIC Are you in the union hokie?

No hes in management. And Ive been in management of unionized workers as well and basically the only thing that we ever had issues with was what my employees werent and were required to do. But never had any problems because we didnt hire idiots and the other people had been there for decades and knew how to do their jobs.

I see...here in illinois they don't play like he described. If you can't pull your weight, you get walked off and they cut the check. When enough companies here bad things about your name then you don't ever get called out. The unions are not forced upon companies either but I "think" the ones that use them get benefits from tax cuts or gonerment contracts. So its a win win for both sides here.

] You can easily judge the character of a man by how he treats those that can do nothing for him!

13 years ago #1,810

neo88

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sadly I think this is more about politics and less about economy, I guess in the long run we will see how it works out. The first decade hasnt worked so well for oklahoma it seems?

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